Curse

zwei2stein · Dec 02, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Fraid you are wrong in your equation or how you stated it.

Powergamer != always good player is more correct.

Wasn't that obvious? Hey, aren't you ex-lawyer?

Also, good player does not mean just "Can play X character well". Our proverbial 10 year olds might be awesome at their character. That does not mean they will provide you with good gameplay environment, main issue of "high level cap will get us right of vermin" argument. Guild Drama, Tears and everything.

At least I define good players also as generally polite, able to solve differences with coplayers on level, not making outrageous demands on others, not starting or perpetuating drama, willing to help out even if all it gives them is a bit of karma, being able to play in team and to take hit for team... No, I do not consider myself to be good player :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Apparently you don't live by your own values. Also, WOW isn't the only mmorpg game out there and all games designs aren't patterned after it in the way they play. Obviously you never played UO, EQ or DAOC.

Umm, yes I do. I don't play WoW, now, do I. I did quit, because I didn't find it fun, remember?

Bryant Again · Dec 02, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Progression does not have to be seeing numbers grow.

In GW, you are exposed to all kinds of progression:
* Get access to new area, new outpost.
* Get new skill
* Get new hero (unlock skills for heroes)
* Get that omgcool skinned weapon/armor.
* Get that elite mission statue

None of this intrinsically grants you more power or anything like that.

There is profound difference between new L20 character on new account and between veteran. And it has to do nothing with watching L get higher and higer and toon getting more powerful.

Now take all of what you put in that list and included in-depth character development, and boom.

We're not talking about seeing "biggar damg" or a "satisfying" high number but rather complex character growth, evolution, and abilities. Skill trees in WoW, Feats and Skills in DnD, you name it. It's one of the most intricate and vital things in an RPG, and while GW did indeed do very well with it I would've much rather preferred to have my character built with a bit more complexity.

garethporlest18 · Dec 02, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now take all of what you put in that list and included in-depth character development, and boom.

We're not talking about seeing "biggar damg" or a "satisfying" high number but rather complex character growth, evolution, and abilities. Skill trees in WoW, Feats and Skills in DnD, you name it. It's one of the most intricate and vital things in an RPG, and while GW did indeed do very well with it I would've much rather preferred to have my character built with a bit more complexity.

Yeah basically add more depth. Depth is something Guild Wars lacks, mostly because it was made to be a PvP game.

Longasc · Dec 02, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Regarding the skill trees of WoW, is the fun

... getting +1 point per level to finally get to the projected level 80 build
... or being level 80 and adjusting points as wanted, having gained all extra abilities?

WoW expansions added 10 levels plus new abilities and new/revamped skill trees. Major breakpoints usually being the max level for faster mounts, flying mounts and so on.

Factions and Nightfall added new skills without adding more attribute points or upping player level.

Adding a few really good skills can mean much more to your char without any need for upping player level at all and a special new skill every 5 levels. It would also prevent making the old level x-y world rather uninteresting for you.

On a related note, I hope that the Norn or other GW2 races will not have a char progression that would work like that:

Level 10: Raven Form
Level 20: Wolf Form
Level 30: Improved Raven Form
Level 40: Improved Wolf Form
Level 50: Bear Form
Level 60: Dire Raven Form
Level 70: Dire Wolf Form
Level 80: Dire Bear Form
...
Level 200: Baby Blizzard... sorry, ANet Bear Form
...
Level 300: Big ANet Bear Form

Of course not only power would increase, but every 10 levels the forms would also get 1 extra ability.

Now why not give players most abilities right from the start? This would make things perhaps more difficult to learn, but people nowadays race for max level and see levelling as some kind of evil anyways.

Adding new abilities also would not require older abilities to gain a new "rank" and more power either. Which is actually not that interesting, pure power gain without gaining anything new.

I agree that they can add more complexity and more feats, skills, skilltrees and more customization options to GW2. To hand out certain skills or abilities over time does not really demand a level system. Reaching a certain NPC somewhere or doing a quest in this or that expansion could also work to unlock/acquire a certain skill/ability.

bel unbreakable · Dec 02, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

we can only hope guys we can only hope

bigroach · Dec 02, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

either no level cap or a high one.

leveling is what keeps people playing these games. they reach max level and then complain about there being no end game or that they reached max level too quickly. why not keep them leveling? pointless rewards like reaching a new level or obtaining new gear is the real reason most people play.

imnotyourmother · Dec 02, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I am for 1000 for a cap. that way you know who is killing stuff when you have them in your group. No stinking hero's If I play the game for 5 years I want to be able to pawn everything. As it is you can go to areas that have baddies 67% higher in lvl than you like you lvl 20 and hard mode snow wurm lvl 30. I would like to just mash it in for its drops but it takes so long... dang it.. it's in the ground again....

Molock · Dec 02, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigroach

either no level cap or a high one.

Levelling is what keeps people playing these games. They reach max level and then complain about there being no end game or that they reached max level too quickly. Why not keep them levelling? Pointless rewards like reaching a new level or obtaining new gear is the real reason most people play.

Way to speak for yourself. I have played 4100hrs in 3 years and only have one title character that has 15 titles. I hope to get r4 KoaBD before GW2. Now, I obviously have not been grinding levels all this time, in fact I hate levelling and try and get the 1-20 over with as fast as possible. I haven't been grinding titles either, I only have 15 (of those only 4 our reputation titles). I played end game a little, did FoW, UW, DoA but it was not was not what kept me playing. I simply log on, farm a little, work on a title for a while, do a little low-end PvP, etc. There are many other players like me who don't play for the levelling. Even though our characters do not have massive levels does not mean there is no character development. I have all elementalist skills on my ele, have collected armour and weapons. All these things provide development. For those who enjoy grind (I can't even begin to understand how they could) they have Lux/Kurz, EotN rep titles, NF rep titles which all require epic grinding.

I certainly don't complain about the lack of end-game content. In fact the only thing I do complain about once in a while is the addition of required grind through NF and EotN. Oh, I do complain about skill imbalanced from time to time

Edit: I might as well add this.

Somebody said that a high level cap =| grind. That statement is completely and utterly wrong. A high level cap is meaningless if it can be achieved in less than.. well a long time. People would still complain if the level cap was 100 and it would be reached in less than 24 hours. The only reason people enjoy high level or unlimited level caps is because they want to flash their e-peen in people's faces and show that they accomplished something someone else cannot/ does not have the time for. In GW people grind for gold and titles to compensate for a low level cap. How many people played HA just so they could /rank people? How many people buy black obby, chaos gloves and a ninja mask just to show "hey look I have more gold than you"?. I have a friend who is obsessed with grinding Kurz/Lux just so he can show them off. In the case of levels, people want to be able to say "hey look, I am a higher level than you so I must be better than you", its so sad to see people trying to gain respect from total strangers in a game by showing off how much time they have spent. This also explains why people wouldn't hesitate to use an exploit/bot/hack to gain an advantage.

/rant over

Dan Ops · Dec 02, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I don't really get why people are crying so much about the level cap. For example in Nightfall or Factions, the level cap could've been 50 and there wouldn't have been any grinding anyway if you just played the storyline. Atm you just did like 2 or 3 out of 14/20 missions and you're already maxed. I don't really care about the number, whether it's 20 or 200 as long as you get the max level just by playing the main story further. For no level cap, no way. Even if you didn't get any benefit from gaining more levels, it would just lead to "glfp 350+ lvl!".

SerenitySilverstar · Dec 03, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

If there REALLY must be a higher leveling system in GW2 (I am opposed), I want to go with:

Get to level 20, and all your attributes/powers stop leveling - you are as powerful as you're gonna get/as powerful as anyone else. Any levels gained from there on in is purely aesthetic to show a) how much XP you've accumulated b) how long you've been playing (much like a title) c) only gives you access to higher leet LOOKING stuff (nice skin weapons/armour, but which still have the same stats as everyone else).

cellardweller · Dec 03, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem here is that Guild War's level design was based off of a PvP game. They wanted everybody to be on equal footing for PvP purposes, not for PvE purposes. In PvE, players generally enjoy being able to level up and power up their characters, so I strongly believe that is the direction they will go in 2.

You've confusing people that play love and GW PvE and people that are after another generic mmo without the monthly fees. The thing that makes (made anyway, pve skills have ruined things) the guildwars franchise unique was the fact that PvE had a level playing field too. Everyone has easy access to the same skills and the same equipment, so when someone is able to complete a a task faster than you, you know they're better - no other mmo out there can do that.

GW is an online game and its appeal comes from interacting with other players. Having huge level limits that take months to reach with endless gear grind removes from that because it trivialises any interactions and makes the game as dull an lifeless as all the other mmos.

DreamWind · Dec 03, 2008, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've confusing people that play love and GW PvE and people that are after another generic mmo without the monthly fees.

I am going to make a claim and probably get flamed for it, but I stand behind it. I am guessing that the average buyer of this game fits the description you just described. The two biggest selling points of this game when it came out were "no monthly fees" and "skill>time", and we can see over time that no monthly fees won out. Anet was trying to attract more competitive players, but they attracted the generic mmo croud that was thrilled at the idea of no monthly fees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The thing that makes (made anyway, pve skills have ruined things) the guildwars franchise unique was the fact that PvE had a level playing field too. Everyone has easy access to the same skills and the same equipment, so when someone is able to complete a a task faster than you, you know they're better - no other mmo out there can do that.

I agree with you...but I STRONGLY suspect Anet does not anymore. They are going to cater to that generic mmo croud I stated earlier, who want more in depth character development and higher level caps.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 03, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

There won't be a level cap, they stated that after a certain level that levels would stop meaning anything and be more of a way to show how much you've played.

They will give pvp chars probably the max level cap (as to effectiveness wise) but for pve they stated it'd be most likely an unlimited level cap, where after a certain point levels wouldn't matter and the "grind for levels" would be purely for people who want to do it.

KoleAurow 23 · Dec 03, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

There won't be a level cap, they stated that after a certain level that levels would stop meaning anything and be more of a way to show how much you've played.

They will give pvp chars probably the max level cap (as to effectiveness wise) but for pve they stated it'd be most likely an unlimited level cap, where after a certain point levels wouldn't matter and the "grind for levels" would be purely for people who want to do it.

I can live with this, But I have searched a few interviews... I havent heard anything official about a cap though...

To show how long ppl have played? That lame. lol Its call /age... haha, I know you mean in a different way though...

Master Knightfall · Dec 03, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

rewards like reaching a new level or obtaining new gear is the real reason most people play.

Exactly, but, we have a small community of players in GW that don't like this sort of play and they don't want to see GW turn into those others, but, they best get ready for it's coming, Anet developers have already given some insight to it as GWEN is an example of GW2 and then the persistant world, of course there's going to be gnawing and gnashing of teeth as others will attempt to kill steal others spawns and I've been there done that in EQ and I know what's going to take place. Every other mmorpg has been successful by having grinding levels and phat loots to go after vs looks and low level 20 of GW. It is a nice toy game, but, it hardly is hardcore in the skin it was when prophecies came out. Gradually Anet has seen fit to change GW into the other types of mmorpgs except for levels and phat loots and I foresee that coming in GW2 to bring over the mobs from WOW. They would be stupid not to try to get that community playing their game. All they have to do is make a no monthly fee WOWlike game and they will be rolling in cash. Just like every other developer out there they will have to leave the community they have now and go more for the mainstream community and that majority that plays the old school way. They have more population which equates to more money in Anet and NCsofts pockets. They already made the Guild Wars that this small minority of people want now it it time for change and the game that the rest of the players want.

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2008, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Regarding the skill trees of WoW, is the fun

... getting +1 point per level to finally get to the projected level 80 build
... or being level 80 and adjusting points as wanted, having gained all extra abilities?

As if those are the only two reasons, and as if only regarding the skill trees.

It's about your character as a whole, his journey in entirety, that's always fun for me. As much as I love raiding Naxx, I just as much love trailing through the early continents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Exactly, but, we have a small community of players in GW that don't like this sort of play and they don't want to see GW turn into those others, but, they best get ready for it's coming, Anet developers have already given some insight to it as GWEN is an example of GW2 and then the persistant world, of course there's going to be gnawing and gnashing of teeth as others will attempt to kill steal others spawns and I've been there done that in EQ and I know what's going to take place. Every other mmorpg has been successful by having grinding levels and phat loots to go after vs looks and low level 20 of GW. It is a nice toy game, but, it hardly is hardcore in the skin it was when prophecies came out. Gradually Anet has seen fit to change GW into the other types of mmorpgs except for levels and phat loots and I foresee that coming in GW2 to bring over the mobs from WOW. They would be stupid not to try to get that community playing their game. All they have to do is make a no monthly fee WOWlike game and they will be rolling in cash. Just like every other developer out there they will have to leave the community they have now and go more for the mainstream community and that majority that plays the old school way. They have more population which equates to more money in Anet and NCsofts pockets. They already made the Guild Wars that this small minority of people want now it it time for change and the game that the rest of the players want.

Quite a few things wrong with this post, and since it's been written as a mutated together string of thoughts I'll reply to it as such:

Regarding GWEN and GW2: There's quite a lot in it there that'll give an indication of what'll be in GW2, that's true, but not of any of the things you've listed. There were quests that had to be completed solo that would take you out of the gameworld into your own little private instance. I'd expect to see this in GWEN because not only is it immersive but it also puts a complete halt on the problem of spawn camping (something ANet is fully aware of that's harmful to the game).

"Every other mmorpg has been successful by having grinding levels and phat loots to go after" - there haven't been very many "successful" MMO's. Off the top of my head I can only bring to mind U:O, EQ and WoW. While some are only unpopular because they cater to a certain niche group, the rest have fallen flat on their face attempting to formulate WoW's success. I wonder why. I also find it interesting that despite GW having none of these, "phat lewtz and hih levz", it was one of the most successful online RPGs to date.

"They would be stupid not to try to get that community playing their game" - the ones that have tried that have fallen flat on their face quite miserably. A large speedbump that will always be a turn-off for "WoWers" is the same thing that's really set GW apart from the crowd: no monthly fee. No monthly fee = no frequent content = no proper endgame.

(Not to mention that Mr. Strain wrote an incredibly well-done article on how to (or how not to) do MMO's, and attempting to compete with WoW was definitely a big no-no).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

They are going to cater to that generic mmo croud I stated earlier, who want more in depth character development and higher level caps.

Character development isn't a "generic MMO" thing, it's a "traditional RPG" thing.

zwei2stein · Dec 03, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's about your character as a whole, his journey in entirety, that's always fun for me. As much as I love raiding Naxx, I just as much love trailing through the early continents.

How is that different from trailing thought world of Tyria till you reach endgame?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Character development isn't a "generic MMO" thing, it's a "traditional RPG" thing.

Is it?

As early Computer RPGs authors were unable to really present convincing story beyond "go, kill evil dragon", they laid emphasis on things that computers can do easily - rules and maths behind real characters. Somehow, it stuck. What a shame.

Really traditional RPGs (you know, not the computer ones) are about other things than getting XP. Actual character development.

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

How is that different from trailing thought world of Tyria till you reach endgame?

Caught me not being specific enough, it seems.

I found the journey to be fun, but was a bit disappointed in how much I was able to get away with. I had played through all of Proph and Factions including numerous runs in their elite areas with Battle Rage + Mend/Vig Spirit on my bar.

Granted there was a lot to learn and configure in GW1, but most of it was rather meaningless. I'm only hoping for something with a bit more merit and requiring a lot more thought in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Really traditional RPGs (you know, not the computer ones) are about other things than getting XP. Actual character development.

Apparently DnD 2-3.5 ed, Morrowind, KotOR, BG 1-2, Oblivion...are all "bad" RPGs. Roger that.

I can't help but feel like you're painting me to look like one of those "MMO LOVAR" shithats, btw.

4thVariety · Dec 03, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

LEVELS ARE NOT EQUAL TO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

Levels are only a mathematical construct to (heavily) influence the outcome of a dice roll combat system. The winner of a confrontation is in part determined by the numbers behind the character. To me as a gamer that is not very satisfying. I'd like to play a game, I do not like observing a series of numbers. Am I a pencil pushing number cruncher? Did I buy Statistica Pro: Character Sheet Manager 2009? What is to gain from +2 levels? Enemies of level +4? Even if you trick yourself into believing that you are getting better by leveling up, the game behind the numbers does not change, you are still the same "must click enemy" drone. Last time I checked people complained when Ursan simplified GW to the point of exploiting a plain numerical advantage over the enemies.

GW has way more possibilities for character development and character depth than any of the other MMOs. It forces me to get better as a player in order to complete all areas. It did not take the easy way of simply raising my level slowly until I am overpowered no matter where I am. If GW2 lives up to tht legacy, it will find ways to challenge the player without outsourcing large parts of an achievement in combat to numbers. A game can be rewarding when you finally learn how to master something, pull it off and win. It's not rewarding when you finally beat it just because you now happen to have the "Cricket Bat of One Hit Kills".

Apart from that, GW needs content, content, content. New missions, new story, new areas, new monsters, new quests. That's playing depths and I doubt anybody would NOT buy new content. Why ruin that open world expandability by pressing content into some combat dice roll numbers, level requirements? Hardly any MMO is really open world, most of them are linear leveling tunnels, deviate too much and the +6 mob will bite you back to the regular track.

zwei2stein · Dec 03, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Caught me not being specific enough, it seems.

I found the journey to be fun, but was a bit disappointed in how much I was able to get away with. I had played through all of Proph and Factions including numerous runs in their elite areas with Battle Rage + Mend/Vig Spirit on my bar.

Granted there was a lot to learn and configure in GW1, but most of it was rather meaningless. I'm only hoping for something with a bit more merit and requiring a lot more thought in GW2.

Yes, but only means that there was lack of difficulty progression to make game interesting, not lack of character progression.

You had tools that you never needed to use. Which of course made you feel that your character stopped progressing because there was no need to equip anything different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Apparently DnD 2-3.5 ed, Morrowind, KotOR, BG 1-2, Oblivion...are all "bad" RPGs. Roger that.

Apparently GURPS, BaK, etc are "wrong kind" of RPGs too ;p

Never claimed that.

Now, lets order those you subjected based on precieved quality (as by me):

BG1-2
KotoR
Morrowind
Obvilion

And now lets examine then a bit:

BG1-2 wins because, well, game world is fleshed out, coherent, it has history, your character has history.
KotoR is worse off a bit. Strong background, but there is more emphasis on combat, but game is strong because it has decent story thou (and has pink energy swords).
Morrowing is, well, Offline MMO. Story is out there, somewhere. Feel free to ignore it while maxing out alchemy skill.
Obvilion is Morrowing stripped from character getting powerful, and it really shows shallowness of rest of content. Zero combat tactics, Ignorable storyline. Poor NPC characters, They kept grind to add icing on cake. Also, no pink energy swords.

BG1-2 & KotoR Would play just fine "with level cap of one". Character progresses by progressing in story.
Morrowind & Co would be trash. Character just ... progresses.

Dungeons and Dragons don't need it either, they need decent GM with good adventure in head because who is willing to ignore rules that don't fit it otherwise, well, have you ever watched bad movie?

But, lets examine DnD, say, feats.

What is more interesting:

1) Character gets some XP points, gets level and chooses feat.

2) Characters goes somewhere, seeks tainer and gets feat.

1) Is kinda abstract. No reall Roleplaying involved, but lots of tables involved.
2) Is playing game.

Character grows in both examples, but in one, character grew in vacuum, in other character gained a bit of history.